EP 224 | How to Give Feedback Without Fear with Sarah Maday

How many of us say we want honest feedback, then avoid it the moment it feels uncomfortable?

Lisa is joined by her friend Sarah Maday, a Learning and Development leader, former professor, and passionate advocate for personal growth, to talk about why feedback feels so difficult and how we can approach it with more confidence. Together, they unpack why so many of us avoid difficult conversations, what it costs our relationships and teams, and how small shifts can make feedback feel like a conversation instead of a confrontation.

Lisa and Sarah talk about the WRAP framework for giving meaningful feedback, how to move from criticism to feedforward, and why psychological safety is about so much more than a workplace buzzword. We get real about choosing the right timing, reading emotional cues, communicating with intention, and separating our self-worth from someone else's feedback. Sarah also shares why having trusted mentors and advisors can help us process feedback with confidence instead of letting it define us.

Chapters:

• 1:02: Feedback Fears And What They Cost
• 7:06: The WRAP Method Explained
• 14:19: Timing Feedback Without Making It Worse
• 18:48: Make Feedback Feel Like Conversation
• 23:25: Sponsor Break Fresh Set Hair
• 24:58: Psychological Safety For Both Sides
• 34:20: Choose The Right Feedback Channel
• 37:22: Growth Mindset And Trusted Advisors
• 43:48: WRAP Recap And Quickfire Questions
• 49:31: Takeaways And How To Connect

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:00

And why do you think we wait? Like, what is stopping us from just having that conversation right away? It's hard.

Speaker 2 0:10

The conversations are hard. Yeah, they are. You know, and you're always worried about how the other person is going to take it.

Speaker 1 0:16

Welcome to the Confident Podcast. I am Lisa Tarkington, your guide to mastering confidence and leadership. As a business and leadership coach, keynote speaker, and the founder behind the Nonprofit Lead, I am here to equip you with the confidence, clarity, and strategy to create game-changing results so that you can step into your power as the person that you are meant to be. If you press play today, it's because you're ready for something bigger. Each episode, I'll bring you real, raw conversations and actual insights that will empower you to redefine your leadership, reclaim your confidence, and transform into the unstoppable force you've always been known to be. This isn't just another podcast. It's your journey that we're on together. So buckle up and let's dive into this transformation.

Feedback Fears And What They Cost

Speaker 1 1:02

Hi everybody, welcome back for another episode of the Confident Podcast. I am your host, Lisa Tarkington, and we are gonna have an exciting, hopefully exciting to all of you guys a conversation. I actually think it will be great because we are gonna be talking about feedback, how to give it, how to receive it. And this is a conversation I see a lot in my keynote work, my professional development, and my coaching clients. And this is something that where people come to me having this fear of giving feedback, um, having this fear of also receiving it. And we have all of these stories that we tell ourselves. And so today we're bringing on a dear friend of mine, Sarah Mayday, who is going to be talking to us about the best way to give feedback. She has an amazing method framework that's going to be able to help you do that. And so, for those that don't know, obviously many of you, is that Sarah and I have known each other for many, many years. We came together when I was running a nonprofit called Self-Love Beauty. She was an ambassador for us, and then she became our board chair not short or shortly after that. And one of the things that I have learned throughout my career from Sarah is how she genuinely cares so much about people and she's willing to have also hard conversations. You know, there were many moments when I was starting out. I didn't know what I didn't know. And to have her in my corner helping me through feedback that I was getting, how to handle situations, it was very, very key for my growth. And I owe a lot of my personal growth and professional growth to the conversations that I've had with her. I'm very blessed to have amazing women and men in my life who have helped supported me. And she was one of them. So just a little bit about Sarah. So Sarah is a learning and development leader, a former professor, and she is passionate about advocating for personal growth. And you'll see that today. She is dedicated to helping people thrive personally and professionally, bringing that passion to everything she does as a leader, a mom, and a lifelong learner. And you will see that throughout today's topic as we talk about feedback. And so let's get right into it. Well, Sarah, welcome to the confident podcast. Thank you for having me. Yes, I'm excited to be talking today about feedback, about the best ways to have hard conversations. And um, when I was thinking about someone to come on and talk about this, I think about all the conversations that you and I have had over the years. Um, and I've shared this kind of in the intro, but you know, you and I have known each other for a long time. And through all the ups and downs, I've been able to come to you. You are very graceful in giving me feedback. You know, we had uh someone else on recently who talked a lot about like how not caring what you what people think and um giving direct feedback. Um, but it's also like a way and a finesse in which you do it based off personality. And so that's really what I wanted to dive into today because I think what I've noticed with people is giving feedback, having hard conversations, anything. They're literally like, nope, I'm good. I don't want to do it. I'm gonna find every way to kind of, and this is like an example that I use a lot is picturing, like, you know, when your kids like you're like, clean your room. And instead they just shove everything into the closet. Well, and then you open it and then it all explodes. And I feel that same way with not having hard conversations. So right from there, like, what are your thoughts and what have you experienced?

Speaker 2 4:29

Oh, that is so true. So true. And it's so, I mean, it's easier in the moment to just ignore it, right? Put it in a closet, say, you know, it doesn't matter, um, move on. But that is a huge cost when it comes to teams at work, when it comes to relationships, because it's all of those little moments that we don't talk about that end up being big moments that can ruin productivity in a team, that can ruin relationships. I think when it comes to work and relationships, everything comes down to communication. Yeah. And if we're not able to have open communication, if we're not able to talk about the things that either we could do better or the things that maybe we didn't do well, that we could level up a little bit. Um, when we don't talk about those things, it just causes such a riff in any situation, work or personal life.

Speaker 1 5:26

And why do you think we wait? Like, like what is stopping us from just having that conversation right away?

Speaker 2 5:35

It's hard. The conversations are hard. Yeah, they are. You know, and you're always worried about how the other person is going to take it. How are they going to are they going to be open to it? Are they going to get upset? Is it a lot of times I think we feel like, well, it's gonna hurt that work relationship or it's going to hurt that relationship and and we don't want that to happen. And so we just avoid. And because a lot of times we think, well, we can just talk that down. But when it comes to work, right? Like at work, if somebody is not doing what they're supposed to be doing or they're making mistakes, we have to be able to address it. Um, we have to be able to talk about it and say, you know, this is what needs to change, this is what happened. Um, and even in personal relationships, if we don't, we're just gonna continue in the cycle.

Speaker 1 6:27

Yeah. And I I can I can totally picture that. And I think what's coming up for me is like, uh, but like I wish we just could have those conversations right from the get-go. But to your point, we get so nervous of what the other people are going to say, feel. We don't want to hurt their feelings. We don't like we don't want all that, so we just don't. And then to your point, we it snowballs. And so what is something that like, okay, so I obviously like we there's different personalities that we're working with, like right off the gate, like when you think about giving someone feedback, what is some tools or something that like really could help someone just get started?

The WRAP Method Explained

Speaker 2 7:06

Yeah. So um last year we did some workshops at work and we taught the wrap method. And I think the rap method, okay. So the wrap method is uh stands for what, where, okay, reason, okay, effect, and prompt. So the what and the where is very specific. A lot of times when we give feedback, we like to be really vague. Um, this one time you did, or you always do, or whatever it might be, or we just use very generalities. But we need to be very specific about the situation. Last week, when this happened, um, the reason is what is the impact? Yeah. You know, how is it? Why am I even telling you? I'm telling you because I care, or I'm telling you because it affected a client or whatever it might be, but what is the reason? Um the effect is the consequence or the emotional impact that it had on the situation. And then the prompt is the really important piece, and that is kind of taking it to feed forward, right? And saying, How do we go from here? Where do we go from here and how do we make it better for next time? And a lot of times we think that we're giving feedback, but a lot sometimes we're just complaining, right?

Speaker 1 8:22

Can you give me some examples on that?

Speaker 2 8:24

Oh, yeah. So, you know, even at work, right? If somebody has done something that's frustrated me, um, if I don't have the what, the where, the reason, effect, and prompt, if it's just, well, that just annoyed me.

Speaker 1 8:36

Yeah.

Speaker 2 8:38

But it really didn't have an impact on anything else. It's just my personal, that's something that that bothers me. I don't necessarily have a reason. I don't have an impact. I have a what and a where, but that's it. And if I don't have all of the things together, I'm just complaining. And so I will run that through my mind whenever I'm giving feedback is do I have all of these things? I love that. Because again, if I don't, I'm just complaining.

Speaker 1 9:08

But and then you're giving could you do some people actually share those things? And then all they're doing is sharing their opinion versus fear. Sure, right? Like I because I think sometimes we do that. Sure.

Speaker 2 9:18

Yeah, we just share opinion or this is how I felt, or and that's fine. But then the prompt, again, is so what are we going to do about it? And the important piece with the prompt though is it can't be me saying, Okay, Lisa, this is what I want you to do, and here's where we go. It's more of so what can we do next time? We so let's say, you know, for example, at work, uh teammate missed sending a uh report to a client. Supposed to send it on Friday, Monday client calls and says, Hey, I didn't get that report. Okay, so I need to come and I need to tell you, hey Lisa, Friday you were supposed to send that report. I'm coming to you because you know, the client's a little frustrated, um, they needed that report. The impact is that they're now losing confidence in us and being able to get this on time. What do you think we might be able to do next time that deadlines might slip? So I'm leaving it to you to think about rather than saying, and next time I want you to do da-da-da-da-da-da. Because how many times, if somebody says to you, I want you to do this, are you going to say, Oh, sure, that sounds great. I'll get right on that, versus if you come up with the idea and you own it, you're going to actually do something with it.

Speaker 1 10:37

Yeah. Yeah. And how have you seen the difference from pre, I'm going to say pre-to-post? Sure. From not using it to using it just with your workplace and for yourself too. Because I know like how how easy it is to talk about it, but action is is the key of like, okay, I still got to do it.

Speaker 2 10:56

Yes. And you know, the the beautiful thing with the rap method is you can use it in any situation, whether it's your personal life, your work life, if it's a peer. Um, it can also be given as feedback up, right? So it is a way. Now I wouldn't say, okay, if I was coming to you and you were my boss, hey, what can you do next time? But you know, how you how you have that conversation can be really helpful. Um, and I've had I've done that before, even with, you know, superiors, right? Um, to just say, here's what happened, here's how I felt about it, here's, you know, how it made the team feel. What do you think that we can do to make sure that this doesn't happen in the future? Or what can we do to work better together? You know, and is there something that I can do to help you? It just opens up the conversation as opposed to just leaving it on their lap to say, oh, okay, well, thank you for that feedback. I'd like to do that. Now what?

Speaker 1 11:58

Now what? And okay, so you're making me think about a few different things. So I think back to performance reviews that I've gotten when I worked in corporate entrepreneurs, right? And so I think back to some of the things that people would say, and I'm like, okay. And then that was like it. And then you ask more questions and they're like, Well, I this is just what someone said. And then it's just in your performance review, and guess what happens? That sits with you. And I know I'm not the only one, but you're like, Why did they put that in there? And why did the leader choose to put that in there with no context? Context, right? And then they never have those conversations that say, like, okay, this is what we can do moving forward so that you can quote unquote move up the next level. You know how you get rated on these things. And so, with using rap, like what have you seen even with performance reviews, or or what could someone do there as well?

Speaker 2 12:46

Again, being very specific. I think that is the most important key is, you know, especially when you're giving examples in a performance review. What was the situation? What was the impact of it? The reason I'm telling you is because I want you to change behavior. I need you to make sure that you're doing better with this, whatever it might be. Um, and then we can have those development conversations of, and where do we go from here?

Speaker 1 13:12

Okay.

Speaker 2 13:13

Especially, you know, because performance reviews, especially from a work perspective, are they're from a point in time. Yeah. Right. I mean, it's like, okay, that that happened last year. There's nothing I can do about it. And oh, by the way, if you're just telling me right now, I I can't do anything about it. But do we have an opportunity? And that's where it it's important to then say, and and for the leader to have the conversation to say, but here's where I want to go from here. Yes, we had this happen, but let's move forward. Love that. And let's take it and let's fix it. Yeah. It's not just it doesn't just then stay in the past.

Speaker 1 13:48

Yeah, I like that. Well, and you're making me think back to your point about like when we get feedback that's so delayed that we're like, okay, why didn't you bring this to me earlier? And back to what we started with, it's like, well, I didn't want to hurt their feelings and all of those things. Right. So would you say, like, what would be time sensitive? And I mean that in the way of if you have feedback to someone, how soon should you be giving it? And how, if it's like past a certain amount where it's like, you just gotta let it go because that's on you right now. So, what are your thoughts there?

Timing Feedback Without Making It Worse

Speaker 2 14:19

Yeah, so there's definitely a timing when it comes to feedback. It's not just, you know, it there is definitely some things that you have to think about. And, you know, we all know, right, that the idea is to give feedback in a timely fashion, right? But at the same time, you have to think about where the person's at, right? If I was in a meeting, and I use this example in our workshop, you know, let's say that I was in a meeting and I got really frustrated because things didn't go well. Um, maybe, you know, I wasn't getting the team moving forward and what we were supposed to be doing. They weren't understanding what I was saying, whatever it might be, I might be frustrated. And maybe my peer and my boss were in the meeting with me, right? And, you know, after the meeting, you know, my boss and peer probably saw some things that I could do differently, but I'm beating myself up over something that happened. I'm really frustrated because you know, certain person wasn't wasn't understanding me or whatever it might be.

Speaker 1 15:16

Yeah.

Speaker 2 15:17

And now, because I'm already in that mental state of beating myself up, if my boss and coworker came to me and said, Oh, and by the way, here are you know all the things, where do we go from here? I'm probably not gonna be apt to listen to them because I'm already but they also don't just want to ignore it because I'm in a in a mood. Yeah, they want to help me get unstuck from that too. So having the conversation that says, Okay, why are you upset? What is it that you're frustrated about from that meeting and let me talk about those things? Maybe they're the same, maybe they're different. And if there were things that they saw that were different, maybe they need to come back to me tomorrow and say, Hey, so I just want to go back to yesterday's meeting. So here are the things this is what we saw, this is how it impacted, you know, the meeting. What do we want to do from here? What do you think you can do, you know, to level up?

Speaker 1 16:16

Yeah. So like that so I I'm hearing self-awareness. Like, yeah, see the person on the other side. And if you know that it's not the right timing, that doesn't mean oh, you get a pass to not bring it up. Because some people would be like, oh, well, they're just not, I'm just not gonna bring it up, right? And like I think myself there, I'm just gonna throw that into the closet. But to your point, it's like you do have to still do it, but you have to know like the sensitivity. And I, and I'm also picturing right when you said, like, you know, I you were already in your head, and then someone comes to you. And I have a I have a friend that's uh like this where they shut down that. And I was thinking of her the other day just because sometimes I can do that too, where it's like, I'm not ready, please don't, like I'm gonna shut down. And it's not because, to your point, it's not because I don't want that feedback. It's that right now I'm not, I'm not there. And so if someone what if what could be some cue someone could see that like you could tell, like, hey, today's probably not the best day to give someone that feedback.

Speaker 2 17:18

Right. And I mean, a lot of times it's, you know, you can see that they're angry, or if you start talking to them and they, you know, start going off about, well, you know, this is what happened and this is why this happened, and blaming the justification, all these things. Yes, you know, all of those types of things, it's like, okay, now's not the right time. You know, but there's also the point of getting to know someone, right? If I was in a general meeting with, you know, some people or I was in and there's a random person I've never met before, and I think they did something that they could do better, I'm likely not gonna go up to them and say, hey, you know. Yes. And so there's also the relationship factor of that that again, there's gotta be that trust and the credibility and you know, knowing one another to say, okay, now's not the time or now is the time.

Speaker 1 18:09

Yeah. Well, and I think what you're also bringing up is that relationship piece. I think when I I hear people like have conflict that they have to bring up or feedback, we picture this where like we're gonna book a conference room and we're gonna sit across from each other, right? And I'm gonna have my notes here, and you're sitting like across from me, and I'm gonna explain to you the rap, like right, like so. I'm coming off like all this and caring, but also like we're in a dark dungeon room, right? Like, I'm so how can someone make it serious, but also like a conversation? Like, what could the atmosphere look like? Or like, is it in passing? Like, how do you not or or does it need to be formal? I don't know. I want your thoughts there.

Make Feedback Feel Like Conversation

Speaker 2 18:48

Yeah. And I think every situation is different, right? And and it depends on what it is. So, I mean, there have been times where I've, you know, wanted to talk to somebody about a situation and it's like, hey, let's let's go for a walk. Like if we're at work, we're not gonna, you know, go somewhere, but it's like, let's go for a walk. And if we can have this conversation while we're, you know, walking and talking, it takes that formal, you know, situation of sitting across a conference or your you know, conference table and and having that super formal conversation, especially if that's what you really want it to be, is a conversation. You want it to be something where it's like we're going to talk. I'm not discussing and just dumping and then walking out and saying, okay, I hope you help yourself. But it's truly let's have a conversation. And you know, when we do that, you know, and if it's you know something where, hey, let's go meet at a coffee shop, if that's an option, right? Whenever you can take it and put it in a situation that again makes it a little bit more comfortable. However, there are times where maybe it is something extremely serious, it needs to be handled. You can't go walk and talk the halls at work because it's also confidential. And you might have to have a very serious conversation. And so, you know, if you're at a conference room, sometimes sitting like this as opposed to across from one another, this opens it up to where we are we're having a conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Versus I'm talking at you across the table and there's this barrier of a table that's in between. Yeah. So it changes the tone.

Speaker 1 20:21

Well, and you're you're bringing up a great point. It's like back to, I mean, being a leader is not this like, and I am using leader because I feel like they're the ones that have to give the feedback more than anybody, right? Like they're the ones that are like, you know, and you give it to your coworkers too. And so when I'm thinking about certain skills that are coming up of like, okay, I want to get better at these things. I want to, you know, we've brought up communication, we've brought up self-awareness, we brought up things like, what are some things that someone could do today to like start on like getting just like getting more comfortable with these things? Cause to your point, it's like if you don't have the self-awareness to know like the atmosphere or you don't know like even like how we're sitting versus like those things like, and I know that takes time and the experience, but you know, I think about anybody, there are people that I know that have been working 25 years that still do it their way. Sure. And they've never changed. So what are some skills someone could pick up on to help them?

Speaker 2 21:15

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is openness. I think you have to have you have to be open and have a growth mindset to say, okay, maybe there is something different, right? I mean, I think about how we used to do things a very long time ago. Um, you know, even when I started working, you know, the organization has changed. How we interact with people changed. How the expectation of how people want to have interaction, especially at work, is different than it was 30 years ago. Yeah. You know, and so you know, again, there are some people that are very stuck in, you know, this is how we do things. But I think being open and saying, I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to think through and Always having that open mind and then talking to others, right? Finding a mentor, finding a coach and saying, hey, this is how I've always done this. Is this, do you think this is still appropriate? Should I be doing something different? You know, how can I make these conversations better? And, you know, my thing is always I'm I'm a learner. I'm a constant learner, right? So it's, you know, is there a podcast that could help me? Is there a book that could help me? Is there a, you know, training that I could find somewhere, right? That says, okay, what is the modern way of doing things? Or how can I do this to where people will be more, you know, accepting of the feedback that I'm giving? Are there things that I need to change?

Speaker 1 22:40

I love that. I love that. And too, I think that you hit it spot on is the openness. And and that's uh that's that self-awareness of like, hey, like, I'm not being open and I know that. But then it's like, okay, I need to like, how do I shift and change that a little bit? Yeah. Um, and I I think all of those things are so important when it comes to the feedback. And also you, you, I'm gonna keep going back to what you said too. It's like understanding, are you giving feedback? Are you just sharing your opinion? You know, like complaining because you didn't like that they were green that day. I'm making that up because we're both in green. And it's just like, you know, like, what is something there, you know? Um, and and I think to your point, it depends on the atmosphere and how we show up and how we communicate those things.

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Speaker 1 23:25

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Psychological Safety For Both Sides

Speaker 1 24:58

on. So um, okay, what does psychological safety actually look like in a feedback back conversation and not just a theory? Because I feel like psychological safety comes up a lot. Yes, you know, and it's become very popular. And I think that's uh so important, but like how do you create that relationship and feedback?

Speaker 2 25:14

Yeah. And I think there's psychological safety from both the giver and the receiver. Yeah, love that. Right? It's not just it's not just one. Yes, I ask you both. And, you know, it's all about creating trust. It's all about creating that, you know, that atmosphere that we're having a good conversation. Um, from the giver's standpoint, it's you know, how am I making sure that my tone and my body language are also appropriate for the situation? Um and just ensuring that I'm connecting with the person that I'm giving the feedback to. From the from the receiver's standpoint, it's being again open. Yeah. It's active listening, it's asking questions. So it's being able to say, okay, I'm hearing you say that I did X, Y, Z, and here's what I need to do. Can you give me a little bit more? What does that really look like? Rather than it just being not a conversation and just me telling you, you saying okay, and you walking out. Yeah. But again, I go back to conversation, right? It's truly being able to talk about it and be open and saying, okay, I take the feedback, I'm gonna have a growth mindset, I'm going to let this you know sink in, and then what do I do about it? And asking, right? Because I know that I said the the prompt comes from the giver to say, okay, and what are we going to do? But it's also okay from the receiver standpoint to say, I don't really know what to do. Do you have some thoughts? Yeah. Right? Because again, as the feedback giver, of course you have thoughts on things, right? You're your human wants to just jump in and be like, and if you do this, this, this, this, this, we're perfect. Yes. Yes. But that's might not be what's going to work for that person. But at the same time, they may sit there and say, Well, I don't know. I thought that I did great in that presentation. And I thought that I hit every note, and I thought that everybody was listening, and I thought that I, you know, hit everything. Can you share with me what do you think that I could do? And and being open. And then when they do give that, following back up and saying, okay, here are the things that I am doing. And maybe here's how you can help me. Right. Years ago, early in my career, um, I people would come up to me, I'd be giving presentations, and I would hear from people whose um were from other countries, English not their first language. Sarah, you talk really fast. And, you know, for a long time, I was like, okay, well, I can try to change, but this is just who I am. Um but you know, I reached out to, you know, a mentor and said, okay, I don't know how to stop this. Yeah. This is just who I am. And so we kind of worked together on, you know, work on slowing down, practice a little bit more. And then when they would be in rooms with me, we kind of had a cue where if I was going too fast, it's so we knew that, right? So they were also helping me, but it's awesome. I felt comfortable with that person. I knew that they could help me, but they also gave me ideas.

Speaker 1 28:36

Yes, I love that. Well, and I think that back to your whole point of being open. Yeah. Like you had to be open to that. And um, who was who was I just talking to? I can't remember, but they were saying that they kept getting the same feedback over and over again. And they were like, Yeah, but that like I like that stuff. It was actually, yeah, it was a a keynote speaker. And then finally someone said it like a fifth time, and they were like, Oh, I really have to do something about this, right? And how many, like after a while, it's like having that awareness of it's not just, it might be who I am, but I'm also working with my audience. Um, something else you said about um when we were talking about like the giver and the receiver. I think you made a great point when the rap is really like the giver, like preparing. And then I hear from people that are on the receiving end, I don't know what to do in the moment. Because to your point, it is the questions that they need to be asking back. Or even sometimes, how great would it be if we said thank you? Sure. You know, sometimes like not all the time, but like you think about the giver who's literally probably freaking out. Exactly. They don't want to give you any feedback, they just care about you. Right. You know? And so what are like you you had some good questions. Is there anything else the giver should just like think about when they are receiving feedback?

Speaker 2 29:57

Yeah, I think, you know, again, I'm sorry, the receiver. The receiver. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I think it's the mindset, right? It hit everything go a lot of things go back to mindset, right? That's fair. And having the mindset that says, okay, I'm going to take this. And in the moment, again, when the giver gives the prompt, I might not, I still might be mad and I still might be frustrated and I might have all sorts of emotions going on. But I can sit on that and say, okay, I appreciate the feedback. Can I have a little bit of time to think about it? Can I think about what I want to do about it and can we talk tomorrow or whatever it might be? That's really important to have the accountability to where I do have to come back and I do need to have that conversation. So, you know, we need to set up that time, or the giver needs to make sure that, you know, holding each other accountable to do it. But being able to come up with, okay, you know, what am I going to do with this? Because of course, our first reaction when anybody comes and says, Hey Lisa, can I give you feedback? Our first initial reaction is always negative. Yep. Because our brain always goes to, what did I do wrong? What can I fix? You know, it's always the negative. The other side of it is sometimes feedback can be positive. Yeah. Right. So at work we talk about it being either um corrective, not necessarily negative, but corrective feedback and positive feedback. Yes. Right? A lot of times we forget the positive feedback because we just assume that people know. Yeah. But it's just as important to give positive feedback. So again, if we don't make the assumption that every time somebody says, hey, can we chat about something? It's not always going to be the negative. It might be somebody wanting to tell me something positive, something that I did well. But hey, can you do it even better? How do you do it better next time? What can you do to continue this or go better? And I think, you know, it's just important to be able to have that open mind and growth mindset and know, again, the self-awareness to know when to sit with it and when to immediately respond.

Speaker 1 32:17

Yeah, I love that. Well, and I love giving yourself permission to take a minute. Give yourself, you know, not too long because then we can become avoiders, but it's like, hey, like, let's figure this out. I think the other thing that came up when you were talking, and this came up um with uh another company that I work with, is someone said to me, you know, I stopped giving someone feedback because they weren't taking it well. And I found that interesting. So it's like kind of in a good way, if you're getting more feedback and like people feel comfortable giving you feedback, like you should look at that as a positive that people actually feel comfortable giving you feedback. Because how many times do like someone's like, yo, I haven't got feedback in like two years? And I look at them and be like, you should probably think about that. Right. Because if they're not, that shows kind of in a way that they're nervous to give you feedback. And or if someone gives you feedback for a long time and then already all of a sudden stops. What's the, you know, are you asking for? Did they just be like, you know what? They never took my feedback, you know, like so. Any thoughts on any of that?

Speaker 2 33:15

Yeah. A couple of things there. Again, it it is from whoever's giving the feedback, it takes a lot. It does. Right? It takes a lot of effort to put it together. It takes a lot to be able to come and put yourself in that position with the person. So they're not doing it out of spite, especially if they're using the rap method, right? They're not doing it to make you angry, they're doing it because they care. Yes. Right. And if we stop thinking every time somebody's giving feedback, oh, I'm being judged, and if we look at it as somebody's trying to invest in me, yeah, that changes our tone, that changes how we receive it. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, it's really important to, I think, you know, take that into consideration. Yeah. Yes. As, you know, when you're getting the feedback.

Speaker 1 34:13

Yeah. And I think the other question I would have is as you were talking about like walking and talking to someone, we were talking about like in person and stuff.

Choose The Right Feedback Channel

Speaker 1 34:20

So we have a lot of generations in the workplace right now, and a lot of different ways we can give feedback. Some ways, like, well, is that the best way to give feedback? So we have texting, we have, we have like uh, you know, virtual calls. Um, you can also do a voice text. You have IMs, you have face-to-face. I'm probably missing more. What is the best? Is there a best way? Is there ones that you're like, you know what? I would avoid those ones.

Speaker 2 34:47

Oh yeah. I think 100% as much as you possibly can, face to face. Face to face. Okay. Right? When we think about communication, communication, the words that we say is only about 7% of the whole communication. True. Right? True. The other 93% comes from tone and body language. Yeah. I can hear tone, but I can't see body language if we're not face to face. Now, there are times where it that might not be possible. Yep. Where due to situation, it, you know, it needs to be, you know, you might have to send an email or something like that. I would avoid, you know, at all costs if you possibly can, because again, that's dumping it. That's not a conversation then. That's here's what it is, I'm putting it in your lap, even though I might end with a question, yeah, we're not able to have that conversation. Yeah. So as much face-to-face as you can. If you can't do it in person, again, virtual calls, cameras on, because again, then you can see you know, am I being empathetic in my body language? You know, because the other thing, when we depending on who's giving the feedback, sometimes we already have a preconceived idea of the tone and body language that they're using based on past situations.

Speaker 1 36:04

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. Right?

Speaker 2 36:06

Yep. If I assume that the last interaction we had was maybe not a good interaction and I am coming at it from that context, I'm probably not going to be as open to receiving whatever you're going to give me in writing or on a call where I can't necessarily see you. Um so again, as much as you can face to face, so you can see the whole picture of where it's coming from.

Speaker 1 36:33

Well, and I'm literally picturing the email that gets sent with seven people copied and then the reply reply all, then the reply all, and it's like just pick up the phone and have the conversation. And I think we all have done those things because we're so scared, but then we become passive aggressive in a way, you know? And so thinking about how that all shows up for people is really important. And to your point, how do we deal with different personalities? And I think that's tough because I think you said something earlier, is even when you were getting feedback about how fast you talk, it's really to your point, well, that's me.

Speaker 2 37:07

Right.

Speaker 1 37:08

And so then, and not in a bad way, you're you're literally like, I've got to I've got to figure this out without losing who I am. And so, how would someone like, what is what have you noticed about mindset

Growth Mindset And Trusted Advisors

Speaker 1 37:22

work there?

Speaker 2 37:22

Yeah. I mean, again, when that first happened at that point in time, I kind of was like, I don't know how to change this. I don't think I can change this. And a lot of times I had learned or I felt that I had learned to talk fast when I was doing presentations because as I was looking at the audience, if I felt that I saw somebody that was bored, I'd talk faster to try to try to be like, okay, there we go, we're moving on. Yes, yes. So but it's like, okay, but that's that's wasn't overall helpful, right? Just talking faster wasn't getting the point of conversation. That person who knows where they really were that day. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So again, having, you know, again, being able to be open and saying, okay, this is a behavior that can change. I can work on it, I can grow. Because yes, we like to say, well, that's just who I am. And again, talking fast is something that that's simple. But, you know, there could be other things that are, you know, that are nuanced to us. And from a from a growth mindset and from a just thinking about do I want to change that though? Like, will the impact bill be better? Will I be a better person if I do work on this? Yeah. Yeah. Right? Whatever that might be. Um, because again, I think people hide behind the well, that's just who I am, that's just how I've done things, I've always done it this way. That's a very fixed mindset. Yes. And I don't think it helps us at work and relationships, anything. But again, you have to take the the feedback and say, is it true?

Speaker 1 39:05

Yeah.

Speaker 2 39:05

Is it real?

Speaker 1 39:06

Yeah.

Speaker 2 39:07

And you know, so one of the things that we talked about in our workshop was as receivers, you should kind of create a, you know, almost like a group of people or mentors that you could go to. So if you receive feedback that you're unclear on, that you're not sure whether it's true, maybe it came from somebody who you maybe don't have the credibility with, you haven't worked with them very much. Um and you don't want to pick the people that are just your yes people that are like, no, Sarah, you're great at this, you know. Yeah. You want to pick the people that are gonna be honest with you to say, okay, I received this feedback, this is what was said, you know, do I do that? Is that something? And is that something that you can see bothers others or that I should work on? Um and then from there being able to figure out, you know, how do we change this? How do we work on it? What do we do? Um but we have to be open to saying I can change. Yeah. And I will change. Yeah. Because it will make me a better person in this area. Especially if we've gotten feedback numerous times on the same thing. It's like, and especially if it's from multiple people. That's fair. Yep. Yep. Right? Yep. Um, it's like, okay, this is something that we've got to address. Probably need to address, and I need to work on and figuring that out.

Speaker 1 40:32

You're making me think about so last year I was um hiring a speaking coach to like help me with my speaking. I knew that there were areas that I needed to grow in. I just didn't know where to go. And I interviewed people just to see like who would be a good fit. And I'll never forget this woman. Um, completely like she pulled up a video. She's like, okay, let's watch a quick video of you speaking. I said, Okay. So I'm all excited because she's a big wig. And I click the button and she goes, pause it. And she just nailed me left and right. And I left and I texted my friend who I, or I voice text my friend who like told me to meet with her. And I said, I think she'd be really great because she's hard on me, but I also don't know if I'm gonna learn anything because there's no learning. It was just everything I was doing wrong. And I remember that moment, and then I like interviewed another guy, and his way he said, and I think what was really great is he said, Well, I have a system, I have a process in which I you're, you know, I know that you have these things you want to work on. Here's where like I can support you. Like how, and the feedback was just, or the conversation honestly was just different. One made me like, okay, should I work with her because she scares me and like I'm gonna learn a lot? Or the other one that's like, hey, I'm going to teach you, I'm gonna be tough on you, but you're gonna learn ways to help you long term. And I end up going with the other one, the guy that like really helped me. And I think back to that woman a lot because she was wonderful. She was feisty, but she just pointed out all my flaws. And I remember her telling me, she goes, I've heard that you're a really good speaker. And I said, Thank you. She goes, but you're not. And I'm like, I'm not a professional speaker. And then I had this other guy that was like, I hear that you, you know, I think you're a great speaker, but I know you want to be amazing. Right. And I'm like, yes, thank you. Like, don't ruin my confidence in it because it's like, but she still stuck with me of like, she was honest.

Speaker 2 42:22

Yeah.

Speaker 1 42:23

But there's a way in which you can do it. Right.

Speaker 2 42:26

And yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 42:28

And I think that's why it's like, I like your, you know, rap because I think that it helps people. And like obviously she didn't have like a certain incident, but she was pointing things out that wasn't it was helpful if it would have been differently deliverable.

Speaker 2 42:44

Right. And the other thing is it's like, well, if I knew I did all those things wrong and I knew exactly how to fix it, I wouldn't need you. Right. That's another good point. Right. I mean, I'm sorry, but you know, again, if I give feedback to somebody, you know, or I'm telling them, here are all the things that you did wrong. Um, again, we end with the prompt to say, okay, what do you think? Yeah. But at the end of the day, somebody might not know what to do. And we still have to be able to coach them to say, okay, look at this and say, you know, based on this, what do you think you could do? If you're not sure, let's look into it a little bit more. Yeah. I do have some ideas, but I want you to think about it. And, you know, how would you do things differently? Or, you know, what do you want to do to help yourself? And well, I don't know. Okay, well, I do have some suggestions for you then, right?

Speaker 1 43:38

But it's I'll never forget that conversation because I'll never do that to someone, right? Because I'm like, uh oh, okay, I definitely have learned a lot from her.

WRAP Recap And Quickfire Questions

Speaker 1 43:48

And so let's do a recap of what rap is, and then I'm gonna have to ask you some fire, like quick fire questions. Okay. So what so yeah, do a sort of recap on it. Recap.

Speaker 2 43:56

Yeah. Rap is what and where. The situation to be very specific about what happened, the reason. So why am I even telling you? Is it because I care? Is it because you know there was an impact on something else? The effect. You know, what was the consequence, or what was the, you know, emotional impact on others? And then the prompt. Where do we go from here? Leaving it in the receiver's court to have a conversation about let's move forward.

Speaker 1 44:25

Love that. And I'm definitely going to be using that. Because how great is I'm a feed, I'm a framework person. I'm like, give me the method and then I can tea I can play off of it and make it my own. We all like formulas. We do.

Speaker 2 44:36

You know, a lot of people do better when you have a formula, when I have something I can think through. Yes.

Speaker 1 44:42

I love that. Okay. So quickfire questions. The first one I always ask our audience or our person that's on here. I'm totally clearly it's uh it's one of those days. Um, what is a lesson that life has um kept teaching you until you learned it?

Speaker 2 44:58

That's a good one. Um, I think for me is my worth. And for a very long time, I got my worth from approval, from mostly work, actually 100% work. Yeah. Uh for a very long time I was chasing approvals. Did people see me as the expert? Was I the best? Was I all these things? And um again, chasing the approval of who I worked with and who I worked for. And that's exhausting. And then when you have something that happens that challenges your worth, and maybe somebody has a different opinion of you, um, and I had that happen. And immediately I, in every area of my life, felt that I was a failure because uh one person thought that I wasn't what I thought I was, and it was one person's opinion from a work perspective that kind of ruined me. And but it did make me have to stop and think where am I getting my worth from? Who am I? Because it's bigger than just work, right? What do I want my legacy to be? And that was probably the best lesson that I could have learned. It was a very difficult lesson to learn. Yeah, but it has really helped me think about and I I believe uh that I have become a better person at work, I've become a better person out of work. I've thought about again who I am altogether. And so it's also helped when I get feedback, not to take it so personally, but to truly take it and say, Is this true? Is this right? And where do I go from here? And not take it as somebody's trying to make a dig at me or is trying to, you know, knock me down.

Speaker 1 46:47

Yeah, I love that. I'm sorry that you had to go through that lesson, but man, dude, it was the other side is great, but it's that it's that messy metal, I bet. Um, what's a book or a podcast that you're listening to or reading right now?

Speaker 2 46:59

Yeah, so I am the type of person that always have lot has lots going on. So I kind of three books that I'm reading right now. Um, the one is The Culture Map by Aaron Meyer. Uh it has really helped me. I work with global teams. Yeah. So understanding how do they communicate, how do they receive feedback, um, how can we work best together? What is their, what is the style, you know, by country and and all these different things. It's a super great book if you're uh working with uh global teams. Um from a personal standpoint, I'm always looking at you know personal development books. One book that I've read that I grabbed again, I've read it over and over is Um Get It Get Out of Your Head by Jenny Allen. Um so again, stopping all of those, you know, toxic spiral thoughts that we have uh you know that can kind of take us down those paths. And then I'm always I always have to have a fun book, something to just, you know, read at night. So I've been reading James Patterson's um uh Women's Murder Club. Oh, yeah. So there's I think 26 books he's got now. So I'm on 23, so 23rd of midnight. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 47:58

Someone to write 26 books, go that kind of wow. Okay, and last question is um, what is your zone of genius?

Speaker 2 48:05

Oh my zone of genius. Tell me a little bit more.

Speaker 1 48:10

So zone of genius is this something that um I if I gave you eight hours to do something that work that um intersects your strengths and your joy, what would you focus on?

Speaker 2 48:19

Yeah. I would focus where I absolutely love is researching things, um, putting trainings together, putting things together, anything that I know that I can do to help people. So when I have somebody, you know, that comes and says, Hey, we need this training developed on XYZ, or um, I have this person that, you know, I have this issue, our HR business partners will come to me and say, I, you know, I need to coach this employee. Can you help me with some things? Oh, I love digging into what are all the different resources? What can we do? How can we help them? Pretty much anything where I know that I'm helping somebody be a better version of themselves just absolutely gives brings me joy. And I just geek out on all that.

Speaker 1 49:03

And now I know why we're friends. I'm just kidding. Now I love that. And I just love like everything you talked about today. Like, thank you for being honest and like helping. And like, I think the coolest thing is like the methods, the frameworks, and then the real life uh um application is key to all of this. So, again, thank you, Sarah, for being on the company podcast.

Speaker 2 49:22

Thanks for having me.

Takeaways And How To Connect

Speaker 1 49:31

Well, thank you all for tuning into today's podcast. It was so great to hear from Sarah about her rap method framework, about what we can do to not only um have great conversations um and provide feedback, but how we show up differently. We talked a lot about how it can work for the giver, what it looks like for the receiver, and also some skills that are key for our growth, like communication, being open and mindset, and all the good things that I've talked to you guys a lot about. But I think it's really powerful hearing it from someone who, in their workplace, does this on a daily. So if you love today's episode, please, please let me know. Let me know what was your biggest takeaway. Let me know how this framework is working for you. I'd love to hear it. And if you loved it, please forward it to someone that might need it in their life. Be sure to subscribe to our channel and leave a review. So as I say at the end of every podcast, continue to spread love and kindness to everybody that you meet and have a great day. Thank you for joining me on this episode of the Confident Podcast. If today's episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear about it. So send me a message at podcast.lisa Turkington.com. Don't forget, while you're there, to subscribe to our newsletter, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and don't forget to spread the good by sharing this with someone in your life. Remember, you have the power to choose confidence every single day. Keep showing up, keep striving, and keep believing in your potential. I'm cheering you on, and I'll see you next time.